Difference between EPI and Dalton - Kawasaki Teryx Forums: Kawasaki UTV Teryx Forum
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post #1 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-14-2009, 06:46 AM Thread Starter
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Difference between EPI and Dalton

I was talking with Dale at Dalton this past week and he told me something I didn't know. Imagine that!!

I was asking what's the difference between the Dalton and EPI kit was besides the adjustability.

He said that EPI used the Brute Force weights but changed the weight of the fly weights.

He said he tried the same thing because it was the cheap thing to do and easy but what he found was belt temps went up when doing that. It went past a point that he felt comfortable with so he designed a whole new weight.

He also told me Kawasaki had two totally different fly weights for them and they must have had a reason too.

Also if you didn't know, Kawasaki buys Dalton and puts their part number on them for a performance part.

Also, their OD plate is the only one that can't void your warranty even though you have to disable your engine brake. Why? Because Kawasaki sells it too under their part number.

FYI, most likely if anyone else's name is on the kit it is a EPI.

Kudos to Dalton!!!



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post #2 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-14-2009, 11:22 AM
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just send your clutch to vforce john...no need for a clutch kit at all...70+ mph easy..
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post #3 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-14-2009, 09:04 PM Thread Starter
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I wish I knew more about what he does to it. It would suck being down that long though.



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post #4 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-14-2009, 11:36 PM
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I heard VFJohn will get your clutch shipped back to you the same day it arrives. Good service.

I like Daltons clutch set ups in my quads.
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post #5 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-15-2009, 06:09 AM
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Thanks for the support guys. I appoligise that I have not had much time to check in here lately. During the condensed snowmobile season we have over 2000 snowmobile dealerships that rely on us for many specific snowmobile related applications which means long focused hours sometimes.

I'm certainly not here to run down Glen Erlandson (the former owner of EPI) or any competitor. Everyone has their ways of doing things and I respect all of them.

We are quite often asked this question, and the differences are not simply the adjustability,although it is a great benefit. The adjustability is a great thing because you never have to:
  1. wonder if you are choosing the correct kit for your application
  2. buy a different kit if you change your tires or modification
  3. you can fine tune to pefect, accurate calibration of the clutches for a different circumstance, etc
...our method of flyweight gram adjustment is patented, and although many will simply set up the kit for their intended application and never touch it, there are others that may continue to add mods or make changes to the bike as they go along modifying a bit at a time. We have in fact tested the most popular big bores with longer duration camshafts, and can also help with calibration for that, as they require specific, different clutching most times to get the real benefeits of the engine kit.

But in addition to all of that, we did extensive R&D to our Teryx with many different forms of modification, tires, pipes, engine kits, etc.

The Teryx uses a version of the kawi drive clutch much like the 08 and newer brute force atv with the newer "wide pin" flyweights. It IS a different clutch with larger cooling fins and different spider goemetry, but uses the same wide pin design.

When the Teryx came we had already had weights for the newer 08 and up Brute750...and also, in fact, we even had "quick adjust" ones for it too.

These weights would bolt right in the way they were. It is always easiest to use something you already have. At first this is exactly what we did and did quite a bit of testing...assuming, like others, that it was going to be a quick variation of Brute clutching. We actually had some very good test results in ET times and drags, etc and thought we were going to be through this model rather quickly.

Some other companies offer as many as 7 or 8 different "kits" for the teryx, the most of the differences are flyweight grams...that is where the "quick adjust "comes in...because the principal adjustment of clutch rpm during the shift phase is flyweights. Different conditions and tires,etc require faster or slower upshift to get the engine to run at peak hp rpm.

...but as we continued and started more in depth testing we started to realize that we needed to look at more than just "RPM" and the rest of the clutching involved. When testing with 30 inch tires some things started to show up. In fact, the whole vehicle is not only heavier, but it is often required to haul 2 people, have more weight loaded on it, etc. We started to realize why EVEN KAWASAKI engineers had used a whole different style of flyweight curvature, etc than they did on the brute force models (although ours is different again than that).

Doing simple ET runs with small tires in ideal conditions alllowed us to run the Brute force curve, etc, but in more straining situations we realized there was more to it as belt temps would rise quickly, indicating more slippage.

Long story (and I cant type very well) but in the end we ended up with some excellent results and a new flyweight design that offered us the flexibility to tune for many different situations and with the things built into the kit like optional engagement springs,etc...we feel our kit offers the most accurate calibration for most by simply following the set up manual in the kit, along with some personal preference options. We offer that you can get hold of the belt more positivly, and have the tunability to grow with your teryx mods and tune to perfection

Our clutch calibration kits come with a 30 day satisfaction guarantee for the end user, no matter where you purchase it. I beleive we are the only one in the industry to do so, but not certain (it may be worth asking that question when buying other kits to see the response?)...either you have confidence in your product or you don't...and we don't get them back

..one of the things that comes along with that is that we don't simply sell a kit for every model out there...the product has to meet our requirements and parameters. That is why if you look on our website, you will see that on some models we do not even offer a kit. Not that we wouldn't like to, but maybe the gains are not there without too much negative trade offs, etc. On some vehicles, in order to get it quick, there might be a side effect of revving too high during cruising, etc or big losses of top speed, or what have you. If you look at models like the 800 Sportsman, we only sell one spring and tell people that most times it is calibrated fine. We DO offer a kit for 30" MUD tires for that model, but for most trail application the factory had it calibrated quite well, nothing wrong with that

..on other models, like our most expensive clutch kit, the 400 outlander, it seems terribly high for a 400 cc model, but EVERYTHING needed changed. We have never seen a stock atv with so much inherent slippage from the factory, but it has very tall gearing and will run with most 500's, just hard on belts. The kit had to be expensive.

We do not have a kit at all for the rhino, we have large number of Yamaha dealers (particularly from the snowmobile world) that frequently call and say "c'mon guys, you should do something better than what is out there"

I often reply with "why, so you can talk about ME like that?" I think that there are a few good kits out there for rhinos for certain applications, but for the biggest part of the market (trail riding with 27" tires)...the recalibrations often both lose a good amount of top speed in favor of low end...and often they seem to be revving and going nowhere in the midrange cruising as another side effect. I personally do not like it, and like I mentioned, we offer satisfaction guarantee....

We are developing a couple of new secondary springs to be used alone and that will help some out and be cheap...and just as good as a whole kit. We will possibly do some case specific applications as well, but in general, a lot of Rhino applications don't need kits in our opinion.

As for our Dalton Teryx overdrive cover, it gains mph and offers more strength than cutting almost all the way thru a stock cast cover to acheive the same amount of overdrive. As well you gain the benefit of the better cooling from the fins/design. It is HARD anodized for durability at the spider contact points and is a quality product that evolved from the original one we had done for the 04 V-force atv. On the Teryx you can acheive more overdrive than on a v-force because the clutch is different, and you can do it with this bolt on instead of cutting the clutch itself. This is a BILLET part, and as with ANY billet part, it will be duplicated by many in some form or another by someone who will find a way to use less machining, or not hard coat it, or sell it a few $$ cheaper or whatever...the way of the world. There will always be those who invest and develop things and others who follow on their heels.

Both the Dalton clutch kit and the original Dalton overdrive cover have been tested and are available through Kawasaki USA in the Teryx Racing catalog, as well as some of the vendors here like Hunterworks who helps to support this forum with test results, etc.

Dalton Industries.

Last edited by helix; 03-15-2009 at 06:32 PM.
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post #6 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-15-2009, 07:09 PM
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Dalton and Std bore kit

I finally got my Dalton and muzzy pipe on my Teryx. I have only ran it down the street, but damn it is very quick. I went with no weights or screws because most of my riding is in sand. It feels like it is going to lift the front end up when you hit it hard from a stop. I have 12" wide bighorns and leave a 5 foot scratch on concrete. Couldn't get to crazy as I have the cage off while the shop finishes welding the four seat cage up. The Dalton with the orange blue spring engages fairly hard on pavement, but I'm sure in the dirt or sand I won't notice much at all.

08 Teryx Fundy Std Bore Kit, HMF Slip on Duals, Hunterworks carb kit and filter, CDI, 14" Bighorns with ITP 212 wheels, Renegade seats, 26x12x12 9 paddle Extremes and Douglas 10" Wheels, AMS Blacktail on stk Wheels, Radio, Mirror, Custom front bumper and 4 seat cage being built.
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post #7 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-15-2009, 07:25 PM
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Dale I'm sure you make a great kit and thank you for it...but you and Todd scare me sometimes the way you wack at the other vendors. Here is a picture of utv's cap and as you state...

it gains mph and offers more strength than cutting almost all the way thru a stock cast cover....

UTV'S cover...you should look a little closer before whaling on them is all
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post #8 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-16-2009, 06:03 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SRX View Post
Dale I'm sure you make a great kit and thank you for it...but you and Todd scare me sometimes the way you wack at the other vendors. Here is a picture of utv's cap and as you state...

it gains mph and offers more strength than cutting almost all the way thru a stock cast cover....

UTV'S cover...you should look a little closer before whaling on them is all
Cutting a stock cover seems to be fine for a stock engine and we are planning on offering them as well but I would not use it for a built engine. If you were to look at the top of that cover, you will see it is not nearly as thick as the picture you show looks, it's only thick on the edges.

I think you will find we are just very passionate about what we do and are really looking out for you and want you to have the best there is out there so you only have to do it one time and get the best parts there is.

I don't think you could say we lead you wrong and promoted a inferior product, could you?

Think about what this very topic is about.

If you didn't have a clutch kit for your Teryx yet and now you armed with the belt temp information and the idea it is adjustable and the idea it is made for the Teryx not a product made for another vehicle half the weight.

What would you choose?

Like I said earlier, I could sell both if I wanted to but knowing one is better than the other that is the one I want to sell otherwise I am only in this for the money and don't care what you get as long as I get paid.

I can get controversial but that is because I don't mind stepping out of the box. I don't think you guys are cows that should be herded mindlessly.

I think you should educated the customer first so he can make a wise decision.

Look around at other sites:

Clutch kit: Makes you faster!! Send me $250

I'm not knocking other vendors. But there are places you shouldn't buy from if you want service and if you need help after the fact. Not saying I am the only one either, there are several good places and they are represented on here.

Imagine you needing to wire up a small workshop and need all the electrical supplies. You don't really know what you need so you go to Lowes where all of it is just setting there where you have to decide what you need because the guys who work in that section just stock the shelves or do you go to a local electrical supply store describe what you want to do and they sell you exactly what you need and can tell you how to connect it?

The amount of money you spend is basically the same but you feel confident you got the right stuff and know if you need to ask a question you can go back to the electrical supply place and ask.



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post #9 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-16-2009, 07:03 AM
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Customer Service

Cant believe someone would call Helix (Dale) or Todd (hunterworks) arrogant!! I have not personally spent a penny with these guys since my 840 teryx was equipped with everything I need at the time when I bought it. But my experience with these two guys is as if I spent 20K with each of them. I was having VDI issues last year, and Todd was good enough to reprogram both of my units for the cost of shipping!! I have talked to Todd several times on different issues, he was very helpful everytime. Just yesturday Im having a clutch issue (which I will start a new topic about), it has nothing to do with the dalton clutch kit but I was able to PM Helix on here and got a response within 30 minutes. We have been trading PM's trying to figure out my problem. Dale has also sent me a secondary spring on his dime when I needed one. I also have a FST engine kit, now Mickey and I have been friends for almost 10 yrs and I live an hour away from him so I do get great customer service from him also, but he is just a phone call or PM away from any questions a customer or potential customer may have. Ive also been dealing with harry at Thuderhawk Performance lately and he is a class act!! We as customers are VERY lucky to have some great sponsors on this site. How often can you send a PM to the owner/designer of a specific product and ask and recieve advise almost instantly. To me that is worth ALOT!!

08' Teryx LE, FST 840, Muzzys, VDI, Dalton, VFJ Roller, Thunderhawk Performance Race Cage, Bumpers, Door Bars and Bracing, Beard TSX Seats, 5pt. Crow Harness, 12" ITP Type 7 Beadlocks, GBC 8 ply Dirt Commanders, Pro Armor Skids, Team Green Plastic

08' Teryx, Maier Orange Plastic, Thuderhawk Performance 4 Seat Cage, Bumpers, Door Bars and Bracing, Beard TSX Seats, 4 pt. Harness, 14" Chrome Doughas Diablos w/GBC Grim Reapers, VDI, Dalton
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post #10 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-16-2009, 07:19 AM
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The only strength in the stock cast cover is around the outside....and if UTV or Hunterworks,or anyone else wants to cut them I'm certainly not standing in their way. On stock machines it may be fine and never break?

As for the cover,on a stock teryx with about 50 hp you may be fine,..but your signature SRX indicates you are a snowmobiler? You have seen many of the aftermarket total billet clutches thay snow drag racers use?

I've seen and also "put" many a drive clutch through the bellypan and hoods of snowmobiles at drag races....yes higher hp machines,but some of these guys are going to be making more and more hp as they go,...and I'm providing info that with our O/D cover you do not need to cut anything or void warranty,along with the other benefeits.

I'm only explaining our products,as we have had many emails asking why our kit is more expensive than some compettitors. It doesn't hurt anything to explain why,and that it is more than just the adjustability,.....and some people may be interested in reading the post I made to find out that information.Sorry to intrude
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