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post #1 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-30-2009, 06:40 AM Thread Starter
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R U confused about Powercommander V?

The new Power Commander V is a really cool fuel controller.

Let me explain what it does do and what it does not do.

FYI, I have been to a week long Power Commander School in Vegas.

The PC V is really no different than any other PC except that you can ADD the not standard option auto-tune and you can ADD a ignition (CDI) if it is available.

While with Auto-Tune and a ignition this would be the best there is, it is at a price, you will be into it nearly $1000 for all three pieces.

There is still no ignition for the Teryx version of the PC V and not sure when it will be available so basically all you get is a fuel controller and you can add the auto tune.

I thought the Auto-Tune would be the bomb and it really is but you will need a basic map in the ballpark before it can auto-tune. You can't add a bunch of engine mods and slap this baby on and it tune the fuel for you. You need a fuel map that is partially right before it can do it. If I remember right, it can adjust if it is in within 20%

This makes the dealer need to still have some matching maps to what ever the mod is and then the auto-tune can keep it at the desired air/fuel ratio.

The PC has never been user friendly at all and it is nearly impossible for a end user to make a fuel map on it. You need a load control dyno for real results.

There is a huge table in the software that looks like a Excel document with RPM down the left side of the table and TPS (throttle position sensor) postion across the top. You have to hold your throttle at each position and each RPM in the table, get a air/fuel ratio and then adjust that table to get the desired a/f reading. There is about 200 or so cells to adjust.

This still has to be done with the auto-tune too to some extent.

Another issue with the PC is there is no good way to adjust the fuel in the lower RPM, Dynojet can't even do it because of the CVT. The load control dyno won't slow the engine down low enough to adjust the fuel. They themselves leave the lower RPM at factory specs.

This is just my opinion but there is no real good reason to buy a fuel controller only of any brand for a UTV or any vehicle that has a speed limiter or rev limiter or has a retarded timing curve that needs a change in timing when a unit is coming later that will do fuel and spark.

With that being said, until the fuel and spark box comes out and you want to do mods such as exhaust or engine mods you will have no choice but to get a fuel controller only. We sell the Digitune for the Muzzy pipe but later it will be a moot point.

If the PC had a ignition add-on and it will, then all three items would be the cats meow but not at that price, I would rather spend about $400 for the forth coming MSD but it won't have auto-tune.

When I first heard about the auto-tune I thought this was going to be great and it really is but it is best served on a motorcycle that does not have a low speed limiter like a UTV.



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post #2 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-30-2009, 07:40 AM
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Very interesting, thank you Todd!!

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post #3 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-30-2009, 10:06 AM
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First off i dont want to get into a debate. I just want to state FACTS

The PC V is really no different than any other PC except that you can ADD the not standard option auto-tune and you can ADD a ignition (CDI) if it is available.[/QUOTE]

Not really ....... You can add a dyno jet ignition module to the PC3 or the PC5.
1. Reduced size from PCIIIusb (less than half of the size of PCIII)

2. USB powered from computer (9 volt adapter is no longer needed for programming as it is needed with the PC3)

3. 2 position map switching function built in (map switch not included)

4. Analog input (allows user to install any 0-5 volt sensor and build an adjustment table based on its input such as boost or temperature)

5. THIS IS A BIG ONE ...With gear position input connected the PCV is capable of allowing each cylinder to be mapped individually

6. THIS IS ANOTHER BIG ONE ....Unit has a -100/+250% fuel change range (up from -100/+100%). This means you can add OR take away fuel. You cannot do this with the dobeck/muzzy controller. You can only ADD fuel with a dobeck/muzzy.

7. 10 throttle position columns (up from 9 on PCIIIusb)

8. Enhanced “accel pump” utility (increased adjustment and sensitivity ranges)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunterworks View Post
While with Auto-Tune and a ignition this would be the best there is, it is at a price, you will be into it nearly $1000 for all three pieces.
Well not really ...... as not everyone will need the auto tune? It is for people who want to tune there own sxs or like to adjust and make changes. This allows ANYONE to do testing and make adjustments safely. If you buy a dobeck/muzzy controller and install an 840 kit and say you live in denver co .... how the hell do you have your customer tune it? That is where the auto tune and pc5 are FAR SUPERIOR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunterworks View Post
There is still no ignition for the Teryx version of the PC V and not sure when it will be available so basically all you get is a fuel controller and you can add the auto tune.
NO..... NO .... NO ...... the ignition will be out soon. So that is not an issue. The fuel controller can add or subtract fuel EVERY 250 RPM. PLUS you can map each cylinder different and as everyone knows that is important on a stock teryx as the cams are different front to back. With a dobeck/ muzzy you have to add the same amount of fuel to the front cylinder that you do to the rear. then with a dobeck/muzzy controller you are GUESSING where to add fuel ... via low mid or high. With the pc3 or pc5 it takes all the guess work out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunterworks View Post
I thought the Auto-Tune would be the bomb and it really is but you will need a basic map in the ballpark before it can auto-tune.
Why is that a problem? We will have ALOT MORE then basic maps available. We will have maps that are spot on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunterworks View Post
You can't add a bunch of engine mods and slap this baby on and it tune the fuel for you. You need a fuel map that is partially right before it can do it. If I remember right, it can adjust if it is in within 20%
NO .... again theUnit has a -100/+250% fuel change range (up from -100/+100% on a pc3). This means you can add OR take away fuel. You cannot do this with the dobeck/muzzy controller. You can only ADD fuel with a dobeck/muzzy and with a dobeck or muzzy controller i think you can only add less then 20% ..... THIS IS WHY The power commander is the way to go and is the industry standard in fuel injection controllers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunterworks View Post
This makes the dealer need to still have some matching maps to what ever the mod is and then the auto-tune can keep it at the desired air/fuel ratio.
AGAIN .... the maps do not need to be that close. That is what the auto tuen is about. YES you will need a base map, but that is it. We will have maps for almost every combo to get our customers spot on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunterworks View Post
The PC has never been user friendly at all and it is nearly impossible for a end user to make a fuel map on it. You need a load control dyno for real results.
Not with the auto tune ......... it is EASY. Just type in the a/f you want and drive the car. IT DOES IT AUTOMATICALLY. The PC3 and PC5 are both very easy to use if you can turn on a lap top and send an e-mail, then you can use one NO PROBLEM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunterworks View Post
There is a huge table in the software that looks like a Excel document with RPM down the left side of the table and TPS (throttle position sensor) postion across the top. You have to hold your throttle at each position and each RPM in the table, get a air/fuel ratio and then adjust that table to get the desired a/f reading. There is about 200 or so cells to adjust.
This still has to be done with the auto-tune too to some extent.
You re making this alot tuffer then it really is ....... you drive the car in tunning mode and it will adjust the a/f to the values you put in ..... EASY

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunterworks View Post
Another issue with the PC is there is no good way to adjust the fuel in the lower RPM, Dynojet can't even do it because of the CVT. The load control dyno won't slow the engine down low enough to adjust the fuel. They themselves leave the lower RPM at factory specs.
You adjust it to the a/f reading you get at ANY RPM? There is no problem slowing the car on the dyno, but we are not making adjustments SLOWING the car. We make them ACCELERATING that car? or holding at each RPM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunterworks View Post
This is just my opinion but there is no real good reason to buy a fuel controller only of any brand for a UTV or any vehicle that has a speed limiter or rev limiter or has a retarded timing curve that needs a change in timing when a unit is coming later that will do fuel and spark.
That is yet to be seen and the quality of thios said unit is also yet to be seen. I understand you will be selling the UN-SEE MSD unit .... that wont be out for 5 months ATLEAST. Then when it is out how will it adjust? Can you share map files? Can you add and subtract fuel? Can it auto tune? an you add or take away fuel every 250 RPM? How much timing can be added? When can the timing be added and at what incriments? Just go to any website for fuel injected bike or quads and you will see the POWER COMMANDER is the standard in f/i controllers. You will also find people from all walks of live that use and love the power commander. Just because it can do everythign it does not mean you have to use it all and make it complicated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunterworks View Post
If the PC had a ignition add-on and it will, then all three items would be the cats meow but not at that price, I would rather spend about $400 for the forth coming MSD but it won't have auto-tune.
We will see what it does and how good it does it for $400.00 Will it tune each cylinder individually? You keep playing down the auto tune? Not to sure why? It is the GOODS and will be a great tool for EVERYONE>

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunterworks View Post
When I first heard about the auto-tune I thought this was going to be great and it really is but it is best served on a motorcycle that does not have a low speed limiter like a UTV.
What does a low speed limiter have to do with auto tune? I just dont get it? You keep playing down the auto tune? How much do you charge for a dyno run? One trip to the dyno and you could pay for the auto tune. This thing is the GOODS. You can play it down all you want, but it is truely a great thing. Bottom line we will have maps for many different combos. So even if you dont buy a single thing from us you can use or maps to tuen you car with power commander products.
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post #4 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-30-2009, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DASARACING View Post
First off i dont want to get into a debate. I just want to state FACTS

The PC V is really no different than any other PC except that you can ADD the not standard option auto-tune and you can ADD a ignition (CDI) if it is available.
Not really ....... You can add a dyno jet ignition module to the PC3 or the PC5.
1. Reduced size from PCIIIusb (less than half of the size of PCIII)

2. USB powered from computer (9 volt adapter is no longer needed for programming as it is needed with the PC3)

3. 2 position map switching function built in (map switch not included)

4. Analog input (allows user to install any 0-5 volt sensor and build an adjustment table based on its input such as boost or temperature)

5. THIS IS A BIG ONE ...With gear position input connected the PCV is capable of allowing each cylinder to be mapped individually

6. THIS IS ANOTHER BIG ONE ....Unit has a -100/+250% fuel change range (up from -100/+100%). This means you can add OR take away fuel. You cannot do this with the dobeck/muzzy controller. You can only ADD fuel with a dobeck/muzzy.

7. 10 throttle position columns (up from 9 on PCIIIusb)

8. Enhanced “accel pump” utility (increased adjustment and sensitivity ranges)




Well not really ...... as not everyone will need the auto tune? It is for people who want to tune there own sxs or like to adjust and make changes. This allows ANYONE to do testing and make adjustments safely. If you buy a dobeck/muzzy controller and install an 840 kit and say you live in denver co .... how the hell do you have your customer tune it? That is where the auto tune and pc5 are FAR SUPERIOR.



NO..... NO .... NO ...... the ignition will be out soon. So that is not an issue. The fuel controller can add or subtract fuel EVERY 250 RPM. PLUS you can map each cylinder different and as everyone knows that is important on a stock teryx as the cams are different front to back. With a dobeck/ muzzy you have to add the same amount of fuel to the front cylinder that you do to the rear. then with a dobeck/muzzy controller you are GUESSING where to add fuel ... via low mid or high. With the pc3 or pc5 it takes all the guess work out.



Why is that a problem? We will have ALOT MORE then basic maps available. We will have maps that are spot on.



NO .... again theUnit has a -100/+250% fuel change range (up from -100/+100% on a pc3). This means you can add OR take away fuel. You cannot do this with the dobeck/muzzy controller. You can only ADD fuel with a dobeck/muzzy and with a dobeck or muzzy controller i think you can only add less then 20% ..... THIS IS WHY The power commander is the way to go and is the industry standard in fuel injection controllers.



AGAIN .... the maps do not need to be that close. That is what the auto tuen is about. YES you will need a base map, but that is it. We will have maps for almost every combo to get our customers spot on.



Not with the auto tune ......... it is EASY. Just type in the a/f you want and drive the car. IT DOES IT AUTOMATICALLY. The PC3 and PC5 are both very easy to use if you can turn on a lap top and send an e-mail, then you can use one NO PROBLEM.



You re making this alot tuffer then it really is ....... you drive the car in tunning mode and it will adjust the a/f to the values you put in ..... EASY



You adjust it to the a/f reading you get at ANY RPM? There is no problem slowing the car on the dyno, but we are not making adjustments SLOWING the car. We make them ACCELERATING that car? or holding at each RPM.



That is yet to be seen and the quality of thios said unit is also yet to be seen. I understand you will be selling the UN-SEE MSD unit .... that wont be out for 5 months ATLEAST. Then when it is out how will it adjust? Can you share map files? Can you add and subtract fuel? Can it auto tune? an you add or take away fuel every 250 RPM? How much timing can be added? When can the timing be added and at what incriments? Just go to any website for fuel injected bike or quads and you will see the POWER COMMANDER is the standard in f/i controllers. You will also find people from all walks of live that use and love the power commander. Just because it can do everythign it does not mean you have to use it all and make it complicated.



We will see what it does and how good it does it for $400.00 Will it tune each cylinder individually? You keep playing down the auto tune? Not to sure why? It is the GOODS and will be a great tool for EVERYONE>



What does a low speed limiter have to do with auto tune? I just dont get it? You keep playing down the auto tune? How much do you charge for a dyno run? One trip to the dyno and you could pay for the auto tune. This thing is the GOODS. You can play it down all you want, but it is truely a great thing. Bottom line we will have maps for many different combos. So even if you dont buy a single thing from us you can use or maps to tuen you car with power commander products.[/QUOTE]



And that is why Four Stroke Tech is working with DASA. One thing I was thinking to make it cheeper for the customer as far as the Auto Tune is to rent them to the customer and when he is done he sends it back and you rent it to the next guy. This would make you more money in the long run if priced right and give the customer service that no one else would do.
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And that is why Four Stroke Tech is working with DASA.
Thanks .... we have been though this f/i stuff for the past 3 years. We developed LTR450 products, KFX450 products, Raptor700 products and now Teryx products all using the PC3 and PC5 systems. This is nothing new for us or power commander. Power commander has been at this for along time and its why they have set the standard.

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Originally Posted by Four Stroke Tech View Post
One thing I was thinking to make it cheeper for the customer as far as the Auto Tune is to rent them to the customer and when he is done he sends it back and you rent it to the next guy. This would make you more money in the long run if priced right and give the customer service that no one else would do.
I agree 110% ..... or as i posted we may even LOAN an auto tune systemr to our customers. We will see how it all plays out. I just think its crazy to scare people into thinking they cannot use it or that it is hard to do. Once people get it and start adjusting it is habit forming and fun.
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Cool info guys, keep it coming. How long before the Ignition addon do you guys have any idea?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DASARACING View Post
Thanks .... we have been though this f/i stuff for the past 3 years. We developed LTR450 products, KFX450 products, Raptor700 products and now Teryx products all using the PC3 and PC5 systems. This is nothing new for us or power commander. Power commander has been at this for along time and its why they have set the standard.



I agree 110% ..... or as i posted we may even LOAN an auto tune systemr to our customers. We will see how it all plays out. I just think its crazy to scare people into thinking they cannot use it or that it is hard to do. Once people get it and start adjusting it is habit forming and fun.


You have to keep it simple for people because this is scary for some,just like building a big motor the first time.

I don't think you should just loan it out,the customers are willing to pay and it is a hassle to ship it out and get it back. They need to pay a deposit and then refund them part of that when you get it back,or you will never get it back.
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post #8 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-30-2009, 07:29 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DASARACING View Post
First off i dont want to get into a debate. I just want to state FACTS

The PC V is really no different than any other PC except that you can ADD the not standard option auto-tune and you can ADD a ignition (CDI) if it is available.
Not really ....... You can add a dyno jet ignition module to the PC3 or the PC5.
1. Reduced size from PCIIIusb (less than half of the size of PCIII)

Size does not matter here, not important

2. USB powered from computer (9 volt adapter is no longer needed for programming as it is needed with the PC3)

No big deal

3. 2 position map switching function built in (map switch not included)

No big deal, normally no one switches maps, they get one that works and stays with it.

4. Analog input (allows user to install any 0-5 volt sensor and build an adjustment table based on its input such as boost or temperature)

Does not apply to 99% of people.

5. THIS IS A BIG ONE ...With gear position input connected the PCV is capable of allowing each cylinder to be mapped individually

Not big, the PCIII USB had a trim function and so will the MSD coming.

6. THIS IS ANOTHER BIG ONE ....Unit has a -100/+250% fuel change range (up from -100/+100%). This means you can add OR take away fuel. You cannot do this with the dobeck/muzzy controller. You can only ADD fuel with a dobeck/muzzy.

Dobeck/Muzzy are not the only people who make fuel controllers, there are others out there that take away fuel as well as add. The MSD will do both.

7. 10 throttle position columns (up from 9 on PCIIIusb)

Not important to 99.9% of people, actually makes it more complicated

8. Enhanced “accel pump” utility (increased adjustment and sensitivity ranges)

Not important again, it is just a four or five engine revolution of extra fuel.

[/QUOTE]



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Well not really ...... as not everyone will need the auto tune? It is for people who want to tune there own sxs or like to adjust and make changes. This allows ANYONE to do testing and make adjustments safely. If you buy a dobeck/muzzy controller and install an 840 kit and say you live in denver co .... how the hell do you have your customer tune it? That is where the auto tune and pc5 are FAR SUPERIOR.

The stock ECU takes care of elevation differences.



NO..... NO .... NO ...... the ignition will be out soon. So that is not an issue. The fuel controller can add or subtract fuel EVERY 250 RPM. PLUS you can map each cylinder different and as everyone knows that is important on a stock teryx as the cams are different front to back. With a dobeck/ muzzy you have to add the same amount of fuel to the front cylinder that you do to the rear. then with a dobeck/muzzy controller you are GUESSING where to add fuel ... via low mid or high. With the pc3 or pc5 it takes all the guess work out.

The point is, it is not out yet and it adds to the cost. I totally agree with a Dobeck/Muzzy controller. It is a get by till a complete solution is available.



Why is that a problem? We will have ALOT MORE then basic maps available. We will have maps that are spot on.

No one was talking about just DASA, I was talking about PC and it won't come from every vendor with maps already in it. What DASA is doing is great. Again, I was talking about the PC itself not they way DASA was setting it up.


NO .... again theUnit has a -100/+250% fuel change range (up from -100/+100% on a pc3). This means you can add OR take away fuel. You cannot do this with the dobeck/muzzy controller. You can only ADD fuel with a dobeck/muzzy and with a dobeck or muzzy controller i think you can only add less then 20% ..... THIS IS WHY The power commander is the way to go and is the industry standard in fuel injection controllers.

You are wrong here, you misunderstood me. The PC V has be within 20% of the base map to make the correction. Again, I am not comparing the PC V to a Dobeck. It was just used as an example.

Example: If you had no base map, all zeroes and needed to add 50% more fuel with some mods the Auto-Tune will not be able to do it.




AGAIN .... the maps do not need to be that close. That is what the auto tuen is about. YES you will need a base map, but that is it. We will have maps for almost every combo to get our customers spot on.

Again, no one is talking about DASA, only the PC as it comes and you said you will need a base map which is correct and you will need to be within of 20% of what is needed for it to auto-tune.



Not with the auto tune ......... it is EASY. Just type in the a/f you want and drive the car. IT DOES IT AUTOMATICALLY. The PC3 and PC5 are both very easy to use if you can turn on a lap top and send an e-mail, then you can use one NO PROBLEM.

Wrong, no one is talking about getting one from you. If a end user gets a zeroed out one and wants to make his own map it is next to impossible for him to do it because he won't have your base map or anyone else's.



You re making this alot tuffer then it really is ....... you drive the car in tunning mode and it will adjust the a/f to the values you put in ..... EASY

Wrong, refer to above reply.



You adjust it to the a/f reading you get at ANY RPM? There is no problem slowing the car on the dyno, but we are not making adjustments SLOWING the car. We make them ACCELERATING that car? or holding at each RPM.

Have you ever had a UTV on a dyno and tuned a PC? How do you hold it at 100% throttle at 2000 rpm? What do you put in that block?



That is yet to be seen and the quality of thios said unit is also yet to be seen. I understand you will be selling the UN-SEE MSD unit .... that wont be out for 5 months ATLEAST. Then when it is out how will it adjust? With a PC with no 9V battery just like the PC.

Can you share map files? yes

Can you add and subtract fuel? Yes

Can it auto tune? No

an you add or take away fuel every 250 RPM? Every RPM not just every 250

How much timing can be added? As much as you need like any other programmable ignition.

When can the timing be added and at what incriments? From 0 rpm to infinity and the increment is not limited.

Just go to any website for fuel injected bike or quads and you will see the POWER COMMANDER is the standard in f/i controllers. You will also find people from all walks of live that use and love the power commander. Just because it can do everythign it does not mean you have to use it all and make it complicated.

I totally agree it is the cats meow, just does not fit most people and with all the now available add on modules and future ignition one it will cost more than double what the MSD will.



We will see what it does and how good it does it for $400.00

Will it tune each cylinder individually? yes

You keep playing down the auto tune? Can't be keep laying it down when I only made one comment.

Not to sure why? Because it is for the advanced user and advance engine builder not just regular joe.

It is the GOODS and will be a great tool for EVERYONE> Some



What does a low speed limiter have to do with auto tune?

It has nothing to do with it. If your Teryx is limited to 51 mph and you want to go 60 plus what good is any fuel controller of any type without an ignition going to do?


I just dont get it? You keep playing down the auto tune? You said this twice

How much do you charge for a dyno run? I don't charge anything because our dyno is for in house testing and map building.

One trip to the dyno and you could pay for the auto tune.

This thing is the GOODS. You can play it down all you want, but it is truely a great thing. Bottom line we will have maps for many different combos. So even if you dont buy a single thing from us you can use or maps to tuen you car with power commander products.[/QUOTE]

You lost me here.


I totally agree with all it's options now and later it would be the best but not for the money when you can get everything except for auto-tune for less than half the cost.

If everyone who bought one, bought it from DASA then they would be good to go but you can't sell them all. As mentioned several times, what I originally said has nothing to do with DASA only the bone stock in the box as it comes PC V.

The way I see it, I would just use what ever got me by until someone and for me MSD comes out with their unit that will do fuel and spark.

DASA, you took this personal and it had nothing to do with DASA.

Hunterworks is a Dynojet Certified Tuning Center and I know a few things about a Power Commander.

Dynojet is like a pyramid scheme kinda. Them make Dyno's with load control, they make PC and fuel controllers that they want to sell a guy and him go to a tuning center to have it set up for him.

They sell Dyno's, they sell fuel controllers, the dyno center sells dyno tunes.


Even though DASA thought I was attacking him I was not, just thought I would share some basic info for the average guy not the extreme racer or engine builder.

If I wanted a do all and price didn't matter and I didn't want to do much mapping of my own, I would wait until the ignition module is out then buy the whole shooting match from DASA.

Problem is, the ignition is not out yet and by the time it is it might be real close to time for MSD and Dynatek which is Dynojets daughter company to have theirs out.

One more thing. Not sure what Dynojet plans to do with the Teryx ignition but when you buy a add-on ignition for a Rhino it comes locked and you have to fax or mail in a form with your VIN number on it and they give you a unlock code that will only give you 500 more RPM.

Two things wrong with that. One they share the info with Yamaha for warranty issues and two you only get 500 more RPM. It has been a while since I talked with them about this so it might have changed but if it has not then this sucks!!





Last edited by Hunterworks; 04-30-2009 at 08:15 PM.
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post #10 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-30-2009, 09:33 PM
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I'd like to put in my 2 cents based on my automtive EFI tuning experience going back over 20 years (including working many years for Accel DFI). This is intended to help forum members better understand EFI tuning, not to argue with anyone who has already posted, or may post after me.

If you know how to tune a carb'd engine, you'll pick up EFI tuning quickly. At Accel DFI, the best customer was the guy who said "I've been racing and tuning carbs for 20 years, but don't know how to even turn on a computer". You can learn the computer stuff in a day, it takes years to learn the nuances of tuning an engine. The worst customer was the guy who said "I'm an electrical engineer. I've never worked on cars, but now with EFI it'll tune itself and I'll have the sensors to tell me what to do." These guys never got it. Use the sensors to supplement your tuning, not as the main source for data and feedback. Read the plugs, know if you feel a lean surge, or if it feels rich. Let the oxygen sensor verify what you know, don't rely on the sensors as the primary source of info.

Many people who are not experienced tuning engines are afraid of units like the Power Commander (PC). The large data tables look intimidating, but they’re not bad. Think of carb jets - you change jet sizes based on your tuning experience. Bigger jets give more fuel (you don't know exactly how much), with EFI you can increase or decrease fuel like a carb jet, but you will control exactly how much fuel, and exactly where it is added. The data tables are your jets. You can add fuel across the board or be more specific by tuning only selected areas.

Dyno tuning is a big issue. All serious engine development is done on an engine dyno. This is the only way to hold an engine at a specified RPM and load to tune individual fuel or timing cells. Chassis dynos are far more common and use a roller to duplicate vehicle weight. This is nice, as it allows you to tune more easily and safely. You have no rain or dust to deal with, the vehicle isn’t bouncing over bumps in the terrain while you tune and you can stand next to the vehicle to observe what’s occurring and even measure things more easily while under load. Dyno shops and engine builder use chassis dynos effectively. Chassis dynos are also very common for generating HP numbers for advertising. An individual can duplicate chassis dyno tuning simply driving their vehicle and tuning on the fly. In fact, this can be more accurate than a chassis dyno, as the actual vehicle weight load is being tuned, not a ballpark roller weight. Tuning on-the-fly is harder than chassis dyno tuning, and you’ll scare the hell out of yourself occasionally. Things happen fast when driving and tuning. The PC auto-tune will make tuning on-the-fly much quicker, easier and safer. If you’re not near a dyno, the PC auto-tune is a great alternative.

The Power Commander gives very good resolution (every 250 RPM’s). This means that you can adjust fuel up or down every 250 RPM’s. Adjusting every 500-1000 RPM’s is sufficient for stock-style production engines, so there is no need for any more resolution. For an experienced tuner, the Power Commander will be the top choice. For mid-level tuners, companies like Dasa and FST have the experience to help you with your questions and you’ll be very happy with the PC.

The Dobeck unit is more limited in it’s capabilities, but definitely has it’s place. The Dobeck unit has less resolution (low, med & high vs. every 250 RPM) and only allows a limited range of tuning. These limitations are a negative when unlimited access and control are required. For a guy with common mods who wants a plug-and-play unit, the Dobeck can be a great choice. Many people do not realize that the Dobeck units can be custom tuned, but this requires software that an end-user wouldn't have. The person selling a Dobeck can sell it as manufactured, or create their own custom base tune. With a custom base program, a Dobeck is really very good. Again, look for an experienced tuner that will help you when you purchase.

We've looked into the Dobeck units for a turbo project. In fact, I like them as a part of a bolt-on turbo kit. In this case, we'd add a MAP sensor input, tune the Dobeck controller specifically for the turbo engine and adjust the tuning range which would allow customers to adjust for common variables. Plug it in and go. The customer would not be able to get the tuning too far off, and possibly hurt the engine. If someone bought a Dobeck off Ebay and tried to use it on the same vehicle, they’d be in a world of hurt.

Regarding the MSD unit, nobody has seen it or used it, so who can say. New controllers take years to develop and test. One error in a single line of code, and you may have an annoying glitch, or an engine in a bucket. I've seen programming code errors cause havoc. MSD is a great company, I'm not knocking them. But I will say this - anybody that feels that first-year cars or UTV's should be avoided, should apply this standard to engine controllers.

I hope this helps a bit. I do not sell any of these units and have no reason to push one over the other. Buying from a shop with experience and the willingness to devote time to their customer’s questions throughout the tuning process is key to using any of these controllers (an Ebay purchase would be a HUGE mistake). If anyone has a specific question, I'll try to answer it. If my comments get embroiled in a huge debate, I'll politely pass. Thanks.

Harry

Thunderhawk Performance, Inc.
www.thunderhawkperformance.com
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