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Discussion Starter #1
The new Power Commander V is a really cool fuel controller.

Let me explain what it does do and what it does not do.

FYI, I have been to a week long Power Commander School in Vegas.

The PC V is really no different than any other PC except that you can ADD the not standard option auto-tune and you can ADD a ignition (CDI) if it is available.

While with Auto-Tune and a ignition this would be the best there is, it is at a price, you will be into it nearly $1000 for all three pieces.

There is still no ignition for the Teryx version of the PC V and not sure when it will be available so basically all you get is a fuel controller and you can add the auto tune.

I thought the Auto-Tune would be the bomb and it really is but you will need a basic map in the ballpark before it can auto-tune. You can't add a bunch of engine mods and slap this baby on and it tune the fuel for you. You need a fuel map that is partially right before it can do it. If I remember right, it can adjust if it is in within 20%

This makes the dealer need to still have some matching maps to what ever the mod is and then the auto-tune can keep it at the desired air/fuel ratio.

The PC has never been user friendly at all and it is nearly impossible for a end user to make a fuel map on it. You need a load control dyno for real results.

There is a huge table in the software that looks like a Excel document with RPM down the left side of the table and TPS (throttle position sensor) postion across the top. You have to hold your throttle at each position and each RPM in the table, get a air/fuel ratio and then adjust that table to get the desired a/f reading. There is about 200 or so cells to adjust.

This still has to be done with the auto-tune too to some extent.

Another issue with the PC is there is no good way to adjust the fuel in the lower RPM, Dynojet can't even do it because of the CVT. The load control dyno won't slow the engine down low enough to adjust the fuel. They themselves leave the lower RPM at factory specs.

This is just my opinion but there is no real good reason to buy a fuel controller only of any brand for a UTV or any vehicle that has a speed limiter or rev limiter or has a retarded timing curve that needs a change in timing when a unit is coming later that will do fuel and spark.

With that being said, until the fuel and spark box comes out and you want to do mods such as exhaust or engine mods you will have no choice but to get a fuel controller only. We sell the Digitune for the Muzzy pipe but later it will be a moot point.

If the PC had a ignition add-on and it will, then all three items would be the cats meow but not at that price, I would rather spend about $400 for the forth coming MSD but it won't have auto-tune.

When I first heard about the auto-tune I thought this was going to be great and it really is but it is best served on a motorcycle that does not have a low speed limiter like a UTV.
 

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First off i dont want to get into a debate. I just want to state FACTS

The PC V is really no different than any other PC except that you can ADD the not standard option auto-tune and you can ADD a ignition (CDI) if it is available.[/QUOTE]

Not really ....... You can add a dyno jet ignition module to the PC3 or the PC5.
1. Reduced size from PCIIIusb (less than half of the size of PCIII)

2. USB powered from computer (9 volt adapter is no longer needed for programming as it is needed with the PC3)

3. 2 position map switching function built in (map switch not included)

4. Analog input (allows user to install any 0-5 volt sensor and build an adjustment table based on its input such as boost or temperature)

5. THIS IS A BIG ONE ...With gear position input connected the PCV is capable of allowing each cylinder to be mapped individually

6. THIS IS ANOTHER BIG ONE ....Unit has a -100/+250% fuel change range (up from -100/+100%). This means you can add OR take away fuel. You cannot do this with the dobeck/muzzy controller. You can only ADD fuel with a dobeck/muzzy.

7. 10 throttle position columns (up from 9 on PCIIIusb)

8. Enhanced “accel pump” utility (increased adjustment and sensitivity ranges)


While with Auto-Tune and a ignition this would be the best there is, it is at a price, you will be into it nearly $1000 for all three pieces.
Well not really ...... as not everyone will need the auto tune? It is for people who want to tune there own sxs or like to adjust and make changes. This allows ANYONE to do testing and make adjustments safely. If you buy a dobeck/muzzy controller and install an 840 kit and say you live in denver co .... how the hell do you have your customer tune it? That is where the auto tune and pc5 are FAR SUPERIOR.

There is still no ignition for the Teryx version of the PC V and not sure when it will be available so basically all you get is a fuel controller and you can add the auto tune.
NO..... NO .... NO ...... the ignition will be out soon. So that is not an issue. The fuel controller can add or subtract fuel EVERY 250 RPM. PLUS you can map each cylinder different and as everyone knows that is important on a stock teryx as the cams are different front to back. With a dobeck/ muzzy you have to add the same amount of fuel to the front cylinder that you do to the rear. then with a dobeck/muzzy controller you are GUESSING where to add fuel ... via low mid or high. With the pc3 or pc5 it takes all the guess work out.

I thought the Auto-Tune would be the bomb and it really is but you will need a basic map in the ballpark before it can auto-tune.
Why is that a problem? We will have ALOT MORE then basic maps available. We will have maps that are spot on.

You can't add a bunch of engine mods and slap this baby on and it tune the fuel for you. You need a fuel map that is partially right before it can do it. If I remember right, it can adjust if it is in within 20%
NO .... again theUnit has a -100/+250% fuel change range (up from -100/+100% on a pc3). This means you can add OR take away fuel. You cannot do this with the dobeck/muzzy controller. You can only ADD fuel with a dobeck/muzzy and with a dobeck or muzzy controller i think you can only add less then 20% ..... THIS IS WHY The power commander is the way to go and is the industry standard in fuel injection controllers.

This makes the dealer need to still have some matching maps to what ever the mod is and then the auto-tune can keep it at the desired air/fuel ratio.
AGAIN .... the maps do not need to be that close. That is what the auto tuen is about. YES you will need a base map, but that is it. We will have maps for almost every combo to get our customers spot on.

The PC has never been user friendly at all and it is nearly impossible for a end user to make a fuel map on it. You need a load control dyno for real results.
Not with the auto tune ......... it is EASY. Just type in the a/f you want and drive the car. IT DOES IT AUTOMATICALLY. The PC3 and PC5 are both very easy to use if you can turn on a lap top and send an e-mail, then you can use one NO PROBLEM.

There is a huge table in the software that looks like a Excel document with RPM down the left side of the table and TPS (throttle position sensor) postion across the top. You have to hold your throttle at each position and each RPM in the table, get a air/fuel ratio and then adjust that table to get the desired a/f reading. There is about 200 or so cells to adjust.
This still has to be done with the auto-tune too to some extent.
You re making this alot tuffer then it really is ....... you drive the car in tunning mode and it will adjust the a/f to the values you put in ..... EASY

Another issue with the PC is there is no good way to adjust the fuel in the lower RPM, Dynojet can't even do it because of the CVT. The load control dyno won't slow the engine down low enough to adjust the fuel. They themselves leave the lower RPM at factory specs.
You adjust it to the a/f reading you get at ANY RPM? There is no problem slowing the car on the dyno, but we are not making adjustments SLOWING the car. We make them ACCELERATING that car? or holding at each RPM.

This is just my opinion but there is no real good reason to buy a fuel controller only of any brand for a UTV or any vehicle that has a speed limiter or rev limiter or has a retarded timing curve that needs a change in timing when a unit is coming later that will do fuel and spark.
That is yet to be seen and the quality of thios said unit is also yet to be seen. I understand you will be selling the UN-SEE MSD unit .... that wont be out for 5 months ATLEAST. Then when it is out how will it adjust? Can you share map files? Can you add and subtract fuel? Can it auto tune? an you add or take away fuel every 250 RPM? How much timing can be added? When can the timing be added and at what incriments? Just go to any website for fuel injected bike or quads and you will see the POWER COMMANDER is the standard in f/i controllers. You will also find people from all walks of live that use and love the power commander. Just because it can do everythign it does not mean you have to use it all and make it complicated.

If the PC had a ignition add-on and it will, then all three items would be the cats meow but not at that price, I would rather spend about $400 for the forth coming MSD but it won't have auto-tune.
We will see what it does and how good it does it for $400.00 Will it tune each cylinder individually? You keep playing down the auto tune? Not to sure why? It is the GOODS and will be a great tool for EVERYONE>

When I first heard about the auto-tune I thought this was going to be great and it really is but it is best served on a motorcycle that does not have a low speed limiter like a UTV.
What does a low speed limiter have to do with auto tune? I just dont get it? You keep playing down the auto tune? How much do you charge for a dyno run? One trip to the dyno and you could pay for the auto tune. This thing is the GOODS. You can play it down all you want, but it is truely a great thing. Bottom line we will have maps for many different combos. So even if you dont buy a single thing from us you can use or maps to tuen you car with power commander products.
 

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First off i dont want to get into a debate. I just want to state FACTS

The PC V is really no different than any other PC except that you can ADD the not standard option auto-tune and you can ADD a ignition (CDI) if it is available.
Not really ....... You can add a dyno jet ignition module to the PC3 or the PC5.
1. Reduced size from PCIIIusb (less than half of the size of PCIII)

2. USB powered from computer (9 volt adapter is no longer needed for programming as it is needed with the PC3)

3. 2 position map switching function built in (map switch not included)

4. Analog input (allows user to install any 0-5 volt sensor and build an adjustment table based on its input such as boost or temperature)

5. THIS IS A BIG ONE ...With gear position input connected the PCV is capable of allowing each cylinder to be mapped individually

6. THIS IS ANOTHER BIG ONE ....Unit has a -100/+250% fuel change range (up from -100/+100%). This means you can add OR take away fuel. You cannot do this with the dobeck/muzzy controller. You can only ADD fuel with a dobeck/muzzy.

7. 10 throttle position columns (up from 9 on PCIIIusb)

8. Enhanced “accel pump” utility (increased adjustment and sensitivity ranges)




Well not really ...... as not everyone will need the auto tune? It is for people who want to tune there own sxs or like to adjust and make changes. This allows ANYONE to do testing and make adjustments safely. If you buy a dobeck/muzzy controller and install an 840 kit and say you live in denver co .... how the hell do you have your customer tune it? That is where the auto tune and pc5 are FAR SUPERIOR.



NO..... NO .... NO ...... the ignition will be out soon. So that is not an issue. The fuel controller can add or subtract fuel EVERY 250 RPM. PLUS you can map each cylinder different and as everyone knows that is important on a stock teryx as the cams are different front to back. With a dobeck/ muzzy you have to add the same amount of fuel to the front cylinder that you do to the rear. then with a dobeck/muzzy controller you are GUESSING where to add fuel ... via low mid or high. With the pc3 or pc5 it takes all the guess work out.



Why is that a problem? We will have ALOT MORE then basic maps available. We will have maps that are spot on.



NO .... again theUnit has a -100/+250% fuel change range (up from -100/+100% on a pc3). This means you can add OR take away fuel. You cannot do this with the dobeck/muzzy controller. You can only ADD fuel with a dobeck/muzzy and with a dobeck or muzzy controller i think you can only add less then 20% ..... THIS IS WHY The power commander is the way to go and is the industry standard in fuel injection controllers.



AGAIN .... the maps do not need to be that close. That is what the auto tuen is about. YES you will need a base map, but that is it. We will have maps for almost every combo to get our customers spot on.



Not with the auto tune ......... it is EASY. Just type in the a/f you want and drive the car. IT DOES IT AUTOMATICALLY. The PC3 and PC5 are both very easy to use if you can turn on a lap top and send an e-mail, then you can use one NO PROBLEM.



You re making this alot tuffer then it really is ....... you drive the car in tunning mode and it will adjust the a/f to the values you put in ..... EASY



You adjust it to the a/f reading you get at ANY RPM? There is no problem slowing the car on the dyno, but we are not making adjustments SLOWING the car. We make them ACCELERATING that car? or holding at each RPM.



That is yet to be seen and the quality of thios said unit is also yet to be seen. I understand you will be selling the UN-SEE MSD unit .... that wont be out for 5 months ATLEAST. Then when it is out how will it adjust? Can you share map files? Can you add and subtract fuel? Can it auto tune? an you add or take away fuel every 250 RPM? How much timing can be added? When can the timing be added and at what incriments? Just go to any website for fuel injected bike or quads and you will see the POWER COMMANDER is the standard in f/i controllers. You will also find people from all walks of live that use and love the power commander. Just because it can do everythign it does not mean you have to use it all and make it complicated.



We will see what it does and how good it does it for $400.00 Will it tune each cylinder individually? You keep playing down the auto tune? Not to sure why? It is the GOODS and will be a great tool for EVERYONE>



What does a low speed limiter have to do with auto tune? I just dont get it? You keep playing down the auto tune? How much do you charge for a dyno run? One trip to the dyno and you could pay for the auto tune. This thing is the GOODS. You can play it down all you want, but it is truely a great thing. Bottom line we will have maps for many different combos. So even if you dont buy a single thing from us you can use or maps to tuen you car with power commander products.[/QUOTE]



And that is why Four Stroke Tech is working with DASA. One thing I was thinking to make it cheeper for the customer as far as the Auto Tune is to rent them to the customer and when he is done he sends it back and you rent it to the next guy. This would make you more money in the long run if priced right and give the customer service that no one else would do.
 

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And that is why Four Stroke Tech is working with DASA.
Thanks .... we have been though this f/i stuff for the past 3 years. We developed LTR450 products, KFX450 products, Raptor700 products and now Teryx products all using the PC3 and PC5 systems. This is nothing new for us or power commander. Power commander has been at this for along time and its why they have set the standard.

One thing I was thinking to make it cheeper for the customer as far as the Auto Tune is to rent them to the customer and when he is done he sends it back and you rent it to the next guy. This would make you more money in the long run if priced right and give the customer service that no one else would do.
I agree 110% ..... or as i posted we may even LOAN an auto tune systemr to our customers. We will see how it all plays out. I just think its crazy to scare people into thinking they cannot use it or that it is hard to do. Once people get it and start adjusting it is habit forming and fun.
 

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Thanks .... we have been though this f/i stuff for the past 3 years. We developed LTR450 products, KFX450 products, Raptor700 products and now Teryx products all using the PC3 and PC5 systems. This is nothing new for us or power commander. Power commander has been at this for along time and its why they have set the standard.



I agree 110% ..... or as i posted we may even LOAN an auto tune systemr to our customers. We will see how it all plays out. I just think its crazy to scare people into thinking they cannot use it or that it is hard to do. Once people get it and start adjusting it is habit forming and fun.


You have to keep it simple for people because this is scary for some,just like building a big motor the first time.

I don't think you should just loan it out,the customers are willing to pay and it is a hassle to ship it out and get it back. They need to pay a deposit and then refund them part of that when you get it back,or you will never get it back.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
First off i dont want to get into a debate. I just want to state FACTS

The PC V is really no different than any other PC except that you can ADD the not standard option auto-tune and you can ADD a ignition (CDI) if it is available.
Not really ....... You can add a dyno jet ignition module to the PC3 or the PC5.
1. Reduced size from PCIIIusb (less than half of the size of PCIII)

Size does not matter here, not important

2. USB powered from computer (9 volt adapter is no longer needed for programming as it is needed with the PC3)

No big deal

3. 2 position map switching function built in (map switch not included)

No big deal, normally no one switches maps, they get one that works and stays with it.

4. Analog input (allows user to install any 0-5 volt sensor and build an adjustment table based on its input such as boost or temperature)

Does not apply to 99% of people.

5. THIS IS A BIG ONE ...With gear position input connected the PCV is capable of allowing each cylinder to be mapped individually

Not big, the PCIII USB had a trim function and so will the MSD coming.

6. THIS IS ANOTHER BIG ONE ....Unit has a -100/+250% fuel change range (up from -100/+100%). This means you can add OR take away fuel. You cannot do this with the dobeck/muzzy controller. You can only ADD fuel with a dobeck/muzzy.

Dobeck/Muzzy are not the only people who make fuel controllers, there are others out there that take away fuel as well as add. The MSD will do both.

7. 10 throttle position columns (up from 9 on PCIIIusb)

Not important to 99.9% of people, actually makes it more complicated

8. Enhanced “accel pump” utility (increased adjustment and sensitivity ranges)

Not important again, it is just a four or five engine revolution of extra fuel.

[/QUOTE]
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
Well not really ...... as not everyone will need the auto tune? It is for people who want to tune there own sxs or like to adjust and make changes. This allows ANYONE to do testing and make adjustments safely. If you buy a dobeck/muzzy controller and install an 840 kit and say you live in denver co .... how the hell do you have your customer tune it? That is where the auto tune and pc5 are FAR SUPERIOR.

The stock ECU takes care of elevation differences.



NO..... NO .... NO ...... the ignition will be out soon. So that is not an issue. The fuel controller can add or subtract fuel EVERY 250 RPM. PLUS you can map each cylinder different and as everyone knows that is important on a stock teryx as the cams are different front to back. With a dobeck/ muzzy you have to add the same amount of fuel to the front cylinder that you do to the rear. then with a dobeck/muzzy controller you are GUESSING where to add fuel ... via low mid or high. With the pc3 or pc5 it takes all the guess work out.

The point is, it is not out yet and it adds to the cost. I totally agree with a Dobeck/Muzzy controller. It is a get by till a complete solution is available.



Why is that a problem? We will have ALOT MORE then basic maps available. We will have maps that are spot on.

No one was talking about just DASA, I was talking about PC and it won't come from every vendor with maps already in it. What DASA is doing is great. Again, I was talking about the PC itself not they way DASA was setting it up.


NO .... again theUnit has a -100/+250% fuel change range (up from -100/+100% on a pc3). This means you can add OR take away fuel. You cannot do this with the dobeck/muzzy controller. You can only ADD fuel with a dobeck/muzzy and with a dobeck or muzzy controller i think you can only add less then 20% ..... THIS IS WHY The power commander is the way to go and is the industry standard in fuel injection controllers.

You are wrong here, you misunderstood me. The PC V has be within 20% of the base map to make the correction. Again, I am not comparing the PC V to a Dobeck. It was just used as an example.

Example: If you had no base map, all zeroes and needed to add 50% more fuel with some mods the Auto-Tune will not be able to do it.




AGAIN .... the maps do not need to be that close. That is what the auto tuen is about. YES you will need a base map, but that is it. We will have maps for almost every combo to get our customers spot on.

Again, no one is talking about DASA, only the PC as it comes and you said you will need a base map which is correct and you will need to be within of 20% of what is needed for it to auto-tune.



Not with the auto tune ......... it is EASY. Just type in the a/f you want and drive the car. IT DOES IT AUTOMATICALLY. The PC3 and PC5 are both very easy to use if you can turn on a lap top and send an e-mail, then you can use one NO PROBLEM.

Wrong, no one is talking about getting one from you. If a end user gets a zeroed out one and wants to make his own map it is next to impossible for him to do it because he won't have your base map or anyone else's.



You re making this alot tuffer then it really is ....... you drive the car in tunning mode and it will adjust the a/f to the values you put in ..... EASY

Wrong, refer to above reply.



You adjust it to the a/f reading you get at ANY RPM? There is no problem slowing the car on the dyno, but we are not making adjustments SLOWING the car. We make them ACCELERATING that car? or holding at each RPM.

Have you ever had a UTV on a dyno and tuned a PC? How do you hold it at 100% throttle at 2000 rpm? What do you put in that block?



That is yet to be seen and the quality of thios said unit is also yet to be seen. I understand you will be selling the UN-SEE MSD unit .... that wont be out for 5 months ATLEAST. Then when it is out how will it adjust? With a PC with no 9V battery just like the PC.

Can you share map files? yes

Can you add and subtract fuel? Yes

Can it auto tune? No

an you add or take away fuel every 250 RPM? Every RPM not just every 250

How much timing can be added? As much as you need like any other programmable ignition.

When can the timing be added and at what incriments? From 0 rpm to infinity and the increment is not limited.

Just go to any website for fuel injected bike or quads and you will see the POWER COMMANDER is the standard in f/i controllers. You will also find people from all walks of live that use and love the power commander. Just because it can do everythign it does not mean you have to use it all and make it complicated.

I totally agree it is the cats meow, just does not fit most people and with all the now available add on modules and future ignition one it will cost more than double what the MSD will.



We will see what it does and how good it does it for $400.00

Will it tune each cylinder individually? yes

You keep playing down the auto tune? Can't be keep laying it down when I only made one comment.

Not to sure why? Because it is for the advanced user and advance engine builder not just regular joe.

It is the GOODS and will be a great tool for EVERYONE> Some



What does a low speed limiter have to do with auto tune?

It has nothing to do with it. If your Teryx is limited to 51 mph and you want to go 60 plus what good is any fuel controller of any type without an ignition going to do?


I just dont get it? You keep playing down the auto tune? You said this twice

How much do you charge for a dyno run? I don't charge anything because our dyno is for in house testing and map building.

One trip to the dyno and you could pay for the auto tune.

This thing is the GOODS. You can play it down all you want, but it is truely a great thing. Bottom line we will have maps for many different combos. So even if you dont buy a single thing from us you can use or maps to tuen you car with power commander products.[/QUOTE]

You lost me here.


I totally agree with all it's options now and later it would be the best but not for the money when you can get everything except for auto-tune for less than half the cost.

If everyone who bought one, bought it from DASA then they would be good to go but you can't sell them all. As mentioned several times, what I originally said has nothing to do with DASA only the bone stock in the box as it comes PC V.

The way I see it, I would just use what ever got me by until someone and for me MSD comes out with their unit that will do fuel and spark.

DASA, you took this personal and it had nothing to do with DASA.

Hunterworks is a Dynojet Certified Tuning Center and I know a few things about a Power Commander.

Dynojet is like a pyramid scheme kinda. Them make Dyno's with load control, they make PC and fuel controllers that they want to sell a guy and him go to a tuning center to have it set up for him.

They sell Dyno's, they sell fuel controllers, the dyno center sells dyno tunes.


Even though DASA thought I was attacking him I was not, just thought I would share some basic info for the average guy not the extreme racer or engine builder.

If I wanted a do all and price didn't matter and I didn't want to do much mapping of my own, I would wait until the ignition module is out then buy the whole shooting match from DASA.

Problem is, the ignition is not out yet and by the time it is it might be real close to time for MSD and Dynatek which is Dynojets daughter company to have theirs out.

One more thing. Not sure what Dynojet plans to do with the Teryx ignition but when you buy a add-on ignition for a Rhino it comes locked and you have to fax or mail in a form with your VIN number on it and they give you a unlock code that will only give you 500 more RPM.

Two things wrong with that. One they share the info with Yamaha for warranty issues and two you only get 500 more RPM. It has been a while since I talked with them about this so it might have changed but if it has not then this sucks!!
 

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I'd like to put in my 2 cents based on my automtive EFI tuning experience going back over 20 years (including working many years for Accel DFI). This is intended to help forum members better understand EFI tuning, not to argue with anyone who has already posted, or may post after me.

If you know how to tune a carb'd engine, you'll pick up EFI tuning quickly. At Accel DFI, the best customer was the guy who said "I've been racing and tuning carbs for 20 years, but don't know how to even turn on a computer". You can learn the computer stuff in a day, it takes years to learn the nuances of tuning an engine. The worst customer was the guy who said "I'm an electrical engineer. I've never worked on cars, but now with EFI it'll tune itself and I'll have the sensors to tell me what to do." These guys never got it. Use the sensors to supplement your tuning, not as the main source for data and feedback. Read the plugs, know if you feel a lean surge, or if it feels rich. Let the oxygen sensor verify what you know, don't rely on the sensors as the primary source of info.

Many people who are not experienced tuning engines are afraid of units like the Power Commander (PC). The large data tables look intimidating, but they’re not bad. Think of carb jets - you change jet sizes based on your tuning experience. Bigger jets give more fuel (you don't know exactly how much), with EFI you can increase or decrease fuel like a carb jet, but you will control exactly how much fuel, and exactly where it is added. The data tables are your jets. You can add fuel across the board or be more specific by tuning only selected areas.

Dyno tuning is a big issue. All serious engine development is done on an engine dyno. This is the only way to hold an engine at a specified RPM and load to tune individual fuel or timing cells. Chassis dynos are far more common and use a roller to duplicate vehicle weight. This is nice, as it allows you to tune more easily and safely. You have no rain or dust to deal with, the vehicle isn’t bouncing over bumps in the terrain while you tune and you can stand next to the vehicle to observe what’s occurring and even measure things more easily while under load. Dyno shops and engine builder use chassis dynos effectively. Chassis dynos are also very common for generating HP numbers for advertising. An individual can duplicate chassis dyno tuning simply driving their vehicle and tuning on the fly. In fact, this can be more accurate than a chassis dyno, as the actual vehicle weight load is being tuned, not a ballpark roller weight. Tuning on-the-fly is harder than chassis dyno tuning, and you’ll scare the hell out of yourself occasionally. Things happen fast when driving and tuning. The PC auto-tune will make tuning on-the-fly much quicker, easier and safer. If you’re not near a dyno, the PC auto-tune is a great alternative.

The Power Commander gives very good resolution (every 250 RPM’s). This means that you can adjust fuel up or down every 250 RPM’s. Adjusting every 500-1000 RPM’s is sufficient for stock-style production engines, so there is no need for any more resolution. For an experienced tuner, the Power Commander will be the top choice. For mid-level tuners, companies like Dasa and FST have the experience to help you with your questions and you’ll be very happy with the PC.

The Dobeck unit is more limited in it’s capabilities, but definitely has it’s place. The Dobeck unit has less resolution (low, med & high vs. every 250 RPM) and only allows a limited range of tuning. These limitations are a negative when unlimited access and control are required. For a guy with common mods who wants a plug-and-play unit, the Dobeck can be a great choice. Many people do not realize that the Dobeck units can be custom tuned, but this requires software that an end-user wouldn't have. The person selling a Dobeck can sell it as manufactured, or create their own custom base tune. With a custom base program, a Dobeck is really very good. Again, look for an experienced tuner that will help you when you purchase.

We've looked into the Dobeck units for a turbo project. In fact, I like them as a part of a bolt-on turbo kit. In this case, we'd add a MAP sensor input, tune the Dobeck controller specifically for the turbo engine and adjust the tuning range which would allow customers to adjust for common variables. Plug it in and go. The customer would not be able to get the tuning too far off, and possibly hurt the engine. If someone bought a Dobeck off Ebay and tried to use it on the same vehicle, they’d be in a world of hurt.

Regarding the MSD unit, nobody has seen it or used it, so who can say. New controllers take years to develop and test. One error in a single line of code, and you may have an annoying glitch, or an engine in a bucket. I've seen programming code errors cause havoc. MSD is a great company, I'm not knocking them. But I will say this - anybody that feels that first-year cars or UTV's should be avoided, should apply this standard to engine controllers.

I hope this helps a bit. I do not sell any of these units and have no reason to push one over the other. Buying from a shop with experience and the willingness to devote time to their customer’s questions throughout the tuning process is key to using any of these controllers (an Ebay purchase would be a HUGE mistake). If anyone has a specific question, I'll try to answer it. If my comments get embroiled in a huge debate, I'll politely pass. Thanks.

Harry

Thunderhawk Performance, Inc.
www.thunderhawkperformance.com
 

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I'm not looking to make a career out of my Teryx. I'll take the plug and play solution when it comes out with ignition for about half the price and half the headache. I think I am one of the 99% hunterworks is talking about.
 

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No headache in a PC5 or PC3 .... just full adjustablility IF YOU NEED IT. With no auto tune you will have to HOPE someone makes a map for the mods you have OR pay some one to dyno tune your car NO MATTER WHAT SETUP YOU BUY. Not to mention we will be here to help anyone with it .... if anyone one is confused about a PC3 or PC5 please pm or call us. We will be happy to go over it with you. If you can turn on a light switch .... YOU CAN USE A PC3 or PC5. It is THAT EASY.

WWW.DASARACING.COM
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I think only part of what I typed got read and understood.

The PC V with auto-tune is great and with a ignition would be the best of the best period.

Problem with this unit and any unit MSD, Dobeck, Dynatek, Boon Dockers and any other out there is, is there are very few dealers like DASA or Hunterworks who are doing the fuel maps to match performance accessories for their customers. If you buy this or any fuel controller that does not come with matching maps to products then you will have to make your own which is not something most people want to do.

When I started this thread I should have said up front and did later, if you want or need this PC V you SHOULD buy it from DASA or some place like it so you don't have compatibility issues.

Let me set something clear. With all it's add-ons the PC V is great and the best.

Not everyone needs this kind of set up and don't feel you have to have it.

Alternatives are coming that are less expensive and will do everything the PC V will do except for the Auto-Tune although I hear that is coming too.

Hunterworks is here for the majority of guys who just want something that works, easy to install, does not cost a arm and leg and you don't have to fiddle with it. And I mean anything not just EFI controllers.

If you are a over the top performance guy who needs more or the best of the best then the PC V and DASA are what you need.

I don't know how to make it clearer than that.
 

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I'm not looking to make a career out of my Teryx. I'll take the plug and play solution when it comes out with ignition for about half the price and half the headache.
Kevin,

I'm not picking on you here, but taking your words as representative of many others reading this thread.

Waiting for the ignition option wouldn't be a bad decision. If you need fuel control now, the ignition could be added later as well. By that time, PC tuning shops will have even more base maps which will speed up your tuning even more.

As I understand, the half-price plug-and-play does not offer auto-tune. This will add to your headaches when tuning, not reduce them. Don't confuse the broad tuning capabilities as offered by the PC for difficulty of use. In many cases, the options available on a full-featured unit like the PC are there and you can choose to use them or not. Other options like auto-tune are purchased separately, but it's great to have these options available. It's kinda like the computers we're all reading right now. Very few of us can use all of the features they have, but we use what we need and the rest is un-used. Would anyone go back to a Windows 95 or DOS-based computer simply because we don't plan to use all of the features available on a current compter with Windows Vista?

Without auto-tune, you'll be tuning by the seat of your pants (like carb guys must do), or you'll be paying for dyno time. I'd recommend looking at the PCV with auto-tune a bit more closely before anyone makes a decision. My opinion (based on many years experience) is that people are better-off choosing a true plug-and-play (Dobeck) and keepingt it simple, or going all the way with a fully-optioned, no-holds-barred unit like the PC so that you have no limitaions.

Harry
 

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I think Dasa and Hunter are both here to help everyone .... no question. What i want people to understand is that the PC5 is not hard to use. You can plug it in and play. You do not have to have the auto tune. You do not have to use all the adjustability it has. The ignition box and the PC5 will be about $600.00 from us. We will have maps for anyone and everyone to use. So even if you dont buy a thing from us you can use our maps. Installing maps on a PC5 is EASY. Just a couple clicks on your computer and your done. The ignition box is plug and play too. The thing is WE here at Dasa are going to do all the work. With the PC5 being more adjustable and the ignition being more adjustable WE here at Dasa can make you the customer BETTER FUEL MAPS and BETTER ignition maps. Then YOU the customer can use those maps. The auto tune shines as it is easy to use and if you happen to do mods that there are no maps for then you use our map as a base map and let the auto tune do all the work. It is that easy. We are here to make this easy and most of all FUN.
 

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I just think the average joe like me that is just going to run say a Muzzy pipe, intake and maybe an 840 kit will have no problem getting a map for the cheaper units and it will work great and get rid of the speed limiter and we will be flying through the desert with big smiles on our faces for about $300+ so why would I want to spend $600 on the PC5? Are you saying you are going to be able to make maps on the PC5 that are going to be noticeably better than the maps people are going to be able to make on the other units? I would maybe be willing to pay the extra $300 or so if there was a noticeable difference but I can't imagine it being noticeable.
 

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I just think the average joe like me that is just going to run say a Muzzy pipe, intake and maybe an 840 kit will have no problem getting a map for the cheaper units and it will work great and get rid of the speed limiter and we will be flying through the desert with big smiles on our faces for about $300+ so why would I want to spend $600 on the PC5?
I agree ..... the MSD may be a problem in a couple cases. One is with stock cams we feel you need to be able to make a map for each cylinder as it has different cams front and back. Will the MSD allow you to do this? ..... with the PC3 and PC5 we can. With the MSD rhino box you can only add 50% fuel over stock. Not sure if that will cut it on a built 840. With a PC# you can add 100% more fuel then stock and with a PC5 you can add 250% more fuel over stock.

Are you saying you are going to be able to make maps on the PC5 that are going to be noticeably better than the maps people are going to be able to make on the other units?
I think so .... the MSD is not out and we do not know if it will be different then the rhino MSD that is out. I have touched on a few issues we have and will touch on more.

1. PC5 can make a map for each cylinder. We feel this is key to making a good make for a teryx with stock cams.

2. Rhino MSD box can only add 50% fuel ... not sure if that is going to cut it for a 840 kit with cams and porting ....... PC5 can add up to 250% fuel

3. Rhino MSD box can only add 10 degrees of timing. WE KNOW THIS IS NOT ENOUGH for the teryx to eliminate the the issue it has under 10 MPH. You can add 15 degrees of timing with the PC5 ignition box.

4.Auto tune will save you money and trips to the dyno if there is not a map for your exact setup.

there is more, but we have yet to make all our maps and finish the stuff we have.

I would maybe be willing to pay the extra $300 or so if there was a noticeable difference but I can't imagine it being noticeable.
We feel it will be and is worth it. We will be able to make better fuel and ignition maps based off the info we have on the MSD units that are out now. They you the customer can just use our maps and PLUG AND PLAY. Then the gear heads can adjust as they want .... or ANYONE can add on an auto tune. Its the best of both worlds for a few more $$$$. Spend the money and spend it once ...... buying a part because it is cheaper USUALLY costs you more in the long run.

Bottom line we can sell WHATEVER and ANY products we find to be the best. We will offer what we find to be the best and offer our customers the easiest ,,,,,,,, AND BEST SOLUTION. At this time it is not the MSD in our opinion.
 

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I just think the average joe like me that is just going to run say a Muzzy pipe, intake and maybe an 840 kit will have no problem getting a map for the cheaper units and it will work great and get rid of the speed limiter and we will be flying through the desert with big smiles on our faces for about $300+ so why would I want to spend $600 on the PC5? Are you saying you are going to be able to make maps on the PC5 that are going to be noticeably better than the maps people are going to be able to make on the other units? I would maybe be willing to pay the extra $300 or so if there was a noticeable difference but I can't imagine it being noticeable.

The Auto-Tune kit is an additional feature which can be untilized when needed. If all you want to do is make a map then rent the unit for say $75.00 to auto-tune your machine and be done with it....at least you will know that your map was built for your machine.
Every single machine is different, I am not saying that it is not okay to share maps as they give you a good starting point but I feel it is always better to have your particular machine tuned in some way shape or form. The Auto-tune allows you to do that a fraction of the cost verses dyno tuning.
If you feel it is best to just buy a fuel controller then purchase what you want they will all do the same thing to an extent. As mentioned before there is a concern that only adding 50% more fuel to an 840 kit may not be enough but I can tell you for certain that having the ability to add 250% more fuel will be more than enough,
Everyone needs to do what is right for their Teryx and their situation. The big debate here seems to be... ease of use and expense. No matter which product you decide to buy you will have to load a map or use a base map and tune from there for each individual mods. If you think it is too difficult or too expensive to build your own map then the PCV with Auto-tune is the only way to go.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Been talking with MSD today more about their forth coming unit.

It will only slightly be like the Rhino unit and it will have all the necessary timing and fuel you need.

It will have the ability to do maps for both cylinders.

Funny thing is Muzzy only put one bung in the 09 pipe. No matter what pipe you have you will need two 02 bungs to do the trim function.

Adding 250% fuel is something I am worried about. A injector has a duty cycle and you can't go above 100% where the injector would be on all the time and it never cut off.

Where 250% would come into play is at lower RPM where the duty cycle is low let's say 10% and you increase it 250% then you would be 25% I guess so it would be good there.

At higher RPM and the injector was on say 80% of the time then having the ability to go 250% more is a moot point since you only have 20% more to go.

The thing to do here would be another injector besides too high of a duty cycle might shorten the life of the injector.

Comparing the PC V to the Rhino MSD is not fair since the software for the Teryx is much more advanced.

There won't be a auto-tune at least for a while on the MSD.

My point has been since the inception is if you don't buy your MSD, Dobeck or PC V from someone like Hunterworks or DASA where we pre-map it for you then you will have to go another route to get it that won't be as easy as buying it from people who do the R&D so you don't have to.

Buying a PC V with autotune from Joe Smoe with a zero map and you never heard of DASA then you go try to get it going on your new 840 kit you are screwed unless you know how to do it.

Same as a MSD now for a Rhino. You buy a MSD from a dealer that does not make maps, then you buy a piston cam combo and some exhaust and you want to plug and play with your MSD. Sorry, you need a matching map.

That's what DASA and Hunterworks are doing for you.

Back to the MSD on the Rhino, we have a very good fuel map to match a Muzzy pipe and one forth comeing for a piston/cam combo. If you buy your parts from us, you get the maps and everything is then plug and play.
 
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